at the speech tonight but the speech has been postponed until tomorrow morning. the political right will still go nuts about that speech, but they'll be able to do it now after a good night's sleep. now it's time for "the last word" with lawrence o'donnell. have a great night. have a great night. thanks for being with us. the next place the boston bombing suspects said they wanted to bomb. was times square. there's a lot of new stuff coming to light. >> the boston marathon investigation. >> we thought there was a possibility they could be a related attack here. >> the suspects were planning to detonate more bombs in new york city. >> new york city was next on their list of targets. >> this information comes from the interview with the suspect. >> this was only aspirational. >> delusions of grandeur. >> undeveloped and aspirational. >> when they realized the vehicle they hijacked was low on gas. >> never rejected anyone

american, just because they are american. >> she says investigators have not started questioning him. >> there must be a real gap here between what we believe happened and what she believes. >> the eyes of the world may have been fixed on places far away. >> 2,800 people attempt to pick up the pieces. >> our hearts have been here. >> after one of the worst industrial accidents in memory. >> last week's explosion in west, texas. >> the explosion at the west fertilizer company last wednesday. >> it is still too soon to know what caused the fire or explosion. >> this tragedy has most likely hit every family. >> these have been trying and difficult days. >> last year, federal regulators find the plant that operates safety investigations. >> the crater at the site is 90 feet wide. >> there will be moments of doubt and change, and this has revealed who you have always been.

tonight, new yorkers realize that they were lucky, that the car, the tsarnaev brothers hijacked, 210 miles away in cambridge did not have a full tank of gas. >> last night we were informed by the fbi that the surviving attacker revealed that new york city was next on their list of targets. he told the fbi, apparently, he and his brother had intended to drive to new york and designate additional explosives in times square. >> that plan, however, fell apart when they realized that the vehicle that they hijacked was low on gas, and ordered the driver to stop at a nearby gas station. the driver used the opportunity to escape and call the police. that eventually led to the shootout in watertown, where the older brother was killed in an exchange of gunfire with the police. up until that point, the two brothers had at their disposal

six improvised explosive devices. one was a pressure cooker bomb, similar to the two that had exploded at the marathon. the other five were pipe bombs. >> that new information came during the second round of interrogation of the suspect in custody. >> the first interrogation of dzhokhar happened on saturday evening into sunday morning. and at the second questioning period, was sunday evening into monday morning. >> according to new york police commissioner ray kelly, dzhokhar tsarnaev was more lucid during that second questioning, and that's when he told them about the spontaneous decision to drive to new york after hijacking that car. investigators know that last year, dzhokhar took two trips to new york, once in april and once in november. in april, dzhokhar tsarnaev was photographed visiting times

square with friends. investigators do not know if the trips were related in any way to any plans of attack. the parents of the bombing suspects held a press conference today in dagestan. the father told reporters he will travel to boston to visit his son and to bring his other son's body back to dagestan for burial, if that is allowed. the parents spoke at length with reporters and the mother continued to say she did not believe her sons could be involved in the bombing. >> i thought america was going to like protect us, our kids. it's going to be safe. for, like, any reason. but it happened. opposite. my kids just -- america took my kids away from me. only america. i am, like -- sure that my kids were not involved in anything. >> joining me now is nbc news national investigative

correspondent, michael isikoff and wnbc investigative reporter jonathan deanst. michael, what happens in terms of the miranda warning imposed at the hospital has become an issue. you have information about how the sessions went down inside the hospital. >> reporter: right. first of all, as you know, lawrence, there is this controversy that erupted today when congressman mike rogers, chairman of the house intelligence committee, said the judge in the case, judge bolar, had interfered with the fbi questioning, ordered that the court appearance at the hospital move ahead expeditiously, and that interrupted the questioning. there was a strong pushback from the justice department today, saying that that's absolutely not the case. look, he was charged on sunday, late on sunday, about 6:00, i believe. and then according to court rules, the -- he had to have

his -- be read his rights and have that initial court appearance without undue delay. that was the next business day. the court -- the lawyers were appointed. the public defender's office were appointed monday morning. but we did get some new details about what took place inside the hospital room monday afternoon, when -- about noon, when he was read his rights. we have had the transcript before, but we have some new details about, first of all, he -- about what took place in it, that didn't reflect in the transcript. he looked pretty rough, i'm told. he was -- his face was splotched and swollen. bandaged on his left hand, unable to talk. had to nod affirmatively, and uttered rather than said the word "no" when asked if he could afford a lawyer. but he appeared to be completely lucid. and showed no sign of emotion, remorse, contrition. one way or the other.

and probably the most telling detail was when he was informed of what penalty he was facing for the two charges against him. it was a penalty of death. he was facing the death penalty, and tsarnaev did not register at all any emotion. in fact, the heart monitor didn't blip at all when he was informed he was facing the death penalty. >> michael, i just have to follow up on this point about his lucidity. and a question is how lucid could he be, presumably filled with pain killers at that point. and so there's that whole issue of what is the drug interaction with the consciousness that we're seeing in that scene. >> i think that's a lot of questions that will -- that could get raised by his lawyers, if at some point they want to challenge some of these statements. now, remember, because he hadn't been read his miranda rights, everything he's told to

investigators cannot be used in the criminal case against him. and in many ways, what he had to say may actually have hurt him in some ways in trying to get a deal down the road to save himself from the death penalty. in particular, by telling investigators that there were no accomplices, that the two brothers acted alone, that they didn't have any outside help, sort of takes away the biggest potential leverage he had. i'll tell you about who helped me, if you -- if you don't give me the death penalty. so he lost that. so there's still -- the -- we don't know whether this cooperative attitude that -- displayed to investigators during those two sessions over the weekend, we don't know whether that's going to continue. if he continues to try to be

cooperative or his lawyers take a -- the traditional defense lawyer attitude of, you know, prove your case in court, and we're not saying anything more. that's the federal public defender's office has not said a word so far how this is going to play out, whether he's going to continue to cooperate i think is a very big question that is going to play in a lot into this debate in congress about whether the justice department acted correctly here in trying it in the criminal courts, or as some of the republicans have -- have said, should be -- that he should be charged as an enemy combatant and removed from the criminal process. >> jonathan deans, the parents gave this extraordinary press conference today, the likes of which we have never seen. what do you think are the things that the fbi is most interested in from the parents? >> they need to know whether he met with anybody over there, who was an extremist, maybe linked to radical groups, terror

groups, and remember, he traveled for six months last year from a january through july time period. overseas, to that region, back to see his parents. they are tracking every move he made over there. trying to find out who did he meet with, did he get radicalized over there, did he receive any bomb training. they want to know if he had any help. not only over there, they're also looking here as well. did anyone help him in terms of testing or obtaining materials. as of now, there is no evidence of that. but that is some of the work that's going on. >> and there is this character, misha, we don't have a last name, but we're talking about was misha the person who radicalized the older son. and let's listen to what the mother said about that today. >> we're talking about like how he, being an armenian, became as a good muslim man. i was just really impressed.

there was nothing -- not to like about. nicest, really. >> nothing extreme about him. >> nothing extreme. nothing. well, then tamerlan thought and i thought -- when he left, of course, we started talking about him. look at him. isn't it -- impressing, what he's doing? he's just so great. >> and jonathan, the story came to new york today. and the mayor and the police commissioner went out to talk about it and also tried to talk to new yorkers about how this isn't an easy place to try to get away with something like that. >> since 9/11, this city has formed its own counterterrorism division. there are 1,000 new york city police officers every day assigned to counterterrorism duties in new york city. nonetheless, you had two terror suspects who had carried out successful bombing of the marathon. they had six explosive devices on them. and there was talk, based on the alleged confession in that

hospital room, talk among the brothers, that they were going to come to the city and try to pull off an attack. and the mayor said today, doesn't know if they would have been successful in stopping them and finding them, if they had not run out of gas, and that victim had not called 9/11, turning into that major gun fight when police responded. but, you know, the mayor says basically he's very glad they didn't have to find out the answer to that question. because, yes, they have lots of resources, but intelligence is key in a case like this. if they were lone wolves, which is the leading theory right now, very difficult to track. the question that keeps popping up in my mind, we keep hearing the fbi got one call from the russians and so did the cia. but the russians didn't share much. what did the russians have, and what do they still have we don't know about. >> michael isikoff, and jonathan dienst, thank you both for joining me tonight. next, you will hear from one of the bombing victims who lost

her leg and is determined to learn to walk again. and the president spoke at a memorial for the 12 who died at the west, texas fertilizer plant. the question investigators have to answer, is this an industrial accident or was it manslaughter. also in texas today, the newest american shrine to a man who doesn't deserve one was formally dedicated. in the rewrite tonight, how the presidential library racket is beneath the dignity of the presidency. [ male announcer ] if your kid can recognize your sneeze from a crowd...

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for 2 years with qualifying bundles. rethink possible. in the moments after the boston marathon explosion, firefighter matt patterson ran toward the victims and found 7-year-old jane richard, who had lost her leg. >> she needed a tourniquet and surgery. i'm going right to the business guy, asked for the belt, he

takes it off without hesitation. we have to stop the bleeding. it's over. i make a tourniquet, i'm looking up and down the street to where i can bring this child for an ambulance. >> jane richard is now recovering in a boston hospital, as is her mother and many other victims of the bombing. jane's brother, martin, who was killed in the bombing was buried on tuesday. up next, one of the people making sure the victims are getting the help and care they need. girl vo: i'm pretty conservative. very logical thinker. (laughs) i'm telling you right now, the girl back at home would absolutely not have taken a zip line in the jungle. (screams) i'm really glad that girl stayed at home.

vo: expedia helps 30 million travelers a month find what they're looking for. one traveler at a time. expedia. find yours. when i turned around, the second blast had already happened, and it blew a bunch of us into the bar. and i suppose it hit me because i was the last one.

i was on the ground, everybody was running to the back of the bar. to the exit. and i felt like my foot was on fire. i knew i couldn't stand up. and i -- i didn't know what to do. i was just screaming, "somebody please help me." >> doctors at bringingman women's hospital tried for a week to save her foot but monday heather chose the option of amputation below the knee. >> if i kept my foot, it was very badly mangled. it would probably most likely never fully heal or be functional. it would likely be shorter. one of my legs would likely be shorter than the other. and i wouldn't be able to live the lifestyle that i did prior to the injury. so although the prosthetic is going to be something that i'll have to get used to, i think i have a better chance of living my life the way i used to with that.

>> heather abbott was one of the lucky ones who was visited by first lady michelle obama who gave heather a presidential challenge coin. >> she talked about the fact that she typically only gives this certain coin out to military personnel who are injured, and she actually gave one to me. so that was really nice. >> heather abbott is one of 264 injured in the bombings. 31 victims remained hospitalized. one is in critical condition. at least 14 have had limbs amputated. and, of course, three were killed at the scene of the bombing. last week massachusetts governor deval patrick and menino announced a fund to help the victims. the fund has received over $23 million in donations. that fund will be administered by kenneth feinberg, who has become something of a specialist

in this tragic field. he oversaw the dispersement of funds for the victims of the he september 11th terrorist attacks. he served in the same capacity for the victims of the virginia tech massacre, the bp oil spill, and the aurora, colorado movie theater massacre. joining me now, kenneth feinberg. thank you very much for joining me tonight, mr. feinberg. >> thank you. >> it is, i'm sure, as shocking to you as it is to the rest of us that you are being recruited for another one of these difficult, difficult duties, and trying to administer a fund like the boston fund for the victims of this tragedy. how is your approach to this similar to what you have done in the past and how might it be different? >> well, it's similar in the sense that it's aurora, and it's virginia tech, and it's newtown. it is private, donated money. i'm amazed every time the charitable impulse of the

american people, that they unsolicited donations, that come in on all of these tragedies. where the public wants individual members of the public want to exhibit their support for the victims. now, how much money there will be and who will be eligible to receive the money will depend over the next few weeks, not months, on making decisions based on the amount of money that's available to distribute. >> let's listen to heather abbott talk about what lies ahead for her in recovery. >> i walked maybe ten feet today on a walker. and, you know, everybody was so proud of me. and i thought, oh, gosh, this is going to be a long time. if this distance is something that people are proud of me at this point for, you know -- i'm recognizing that, you know, i'm going to have some pain, that is not going to be controlled. and it's going to take a long time to get to where i want to

be. >> mr. feinberg, there will come a day when heather abbott's file, as it were, is in front of you, and you have to make calculations about how much of this fund should be directed to her. what are some of the elements that come into play there? >> what's the total amount of money, how much is going to be reserved for the families of the four who died, how much should be reserved for double amputees in your column, your list. how much should be reserved for heather and others, depending on how long they have been in the hospital. is there any -- is there enough money left to compensate mental trauma or outpatient physical injuries. these are, you know, decisions that will be made after we know how much money there is to distribute, and we'll also hold, mr. o'donnell, two hearings, town hall meetings in boston on may 6th and 7th to find out what the families and the public

think ought to be done with this money. and then we will make final decisions and get the money distributed to heather, who is obviously eligible, and others by the end of june. >> and it looks like some of the health insurers involved may be helping you out, and helping everyone out by saying they're going to relieve the strain by waiving some of the out of pocket fees that normally these patients would be suffering. and so how long do you think it will take to have an accounting of what the damages, and then also how long do you think it will take before you have a real idea of how much money you will have to administer? >> we'll know how much money we have to administer by may 15th. maybe the end of may. we will get the claim forms distributed to all of the claimants by the middle of may. we'll begin that process, give them one month. by june 15th, the claim forms

will be back in. we'll make a final accounting, we'll get the money out by the end of june. but it's very important, i see in all of these cases, you know this, to dampen expectation. there is no way that there will be sufficient funds to make everybody -- get a full -- a full compensation for their injuries, for the lost loved ones. this is an outpouring of private charity, but i must say that no matter how much money there is to distribute, you're not going to be able to compensate people fully. there's just -- it just can't be done. and people have to understand that, i think. >> all right. well, you're going to have a few more dollars to administer. i'm going make a contribution during this commercial break. kenneth feinberg, thank you very much for joining us tonight. >> thank you very much. coming up, president obama flew over west, texas today to see the devastation after a fertilizer plant exploded.

the question on the ground for investigators, was it an industrial accident or a case of wrongful death where the company faces a civil liability, or is it a case of manslaughter. that all comes down to the question of just how reckless was the management of that company in maintaining the safety of that plant. ford c-max hybrid. when you're carrying a lot of weight, c-max has a nice little trait, you see, c-max helps you load your freight, with its foot-activated lift gate. but that's not all you'll see, cause c-max also beats prius v, with better mpg. say hi to the 47 combined mpg c-max hybrid. governor of getting it done. you know how to dance... with a deadline.

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together you answered the call. you dropped your schoolwork,

left your families, jumped in fire trucks. and rushed to the flames. and when you got to the scene, you forgot fear and you fought that blaze as hard as you could, knowing the danger, buying time so others could escape. and then about 20 minutes after the first alarm, the earth shook, and the sky went dark. and west changed forever. >> this afternoon, president obama attended the memorial service for the 12 firefighters and first responders who were killed in a massive explosion at a fertilizer plant in west, texas on april 17th. a total of 14 people died in that blast. the president and mrs. obama met privately with the families after the service, which featured video eulogies and a reminder of what was really lost. >> our son, jerry chapman, was born april 7th, 1987.

>> words cannot express how much i'm going to miss my husband. >> i'm representing my dad, captain kenneth harris. >> i'm the wife of the volunteer firefighter, morris ridges jr. this is his 2-year-old son jamison bridges. >> i'm honored to have the opportunity to tell you about my brother, cyrus. and the amazing life he shined. >> kevin sanders was a husband, a father, a son, a grandson, a brother, an uncle and a cousin, a nephew, a co-worker and a neighbor, and a friend. >> federal and state investigators have not yet determined what started the fire which ignited the blast. records show the fertilizer plant had 540,000 pounds of ammonium nitrate, 100 times more ammonium nitrate than terrorist bomber timothy mcveigh used 18 years ago to blow up a federal building in oklahoma city.

the blast was powerful enough to register as an earthquake and blew a crater 93 feet wide and 10 feet deep. it leveled the fertilizer plant and homes within a five-block radius. this is what that blast did to a nearby apartment complex. and to a nursing home. and to a children's playground. and to the local school. in january, bp pleaded guilty to 11 counts of manslaughter for the deaths of 11 men who were killed in the explosion on the deepwater horizon rig in the gulf of mexico in april of 2010. the company was sentenced, and a $4 billion fine and five years of probation was handed down. two of the rig supervisors have been charged and are awaiting trial for manslaughter, accused of disregarding abnormal high pressure readings.

alex wagner, one of the benefits of a regulated economy, regulated workplace, government regulation, is that we have -- if those regulations are followed, virtually eliminated the deadly industrial accident. and to have this plant explode like this, not having been inspected in many years, the first place you have to go is where were the regulators. >> yeah. and the word "regulation" in this society is almost a four-letter word. that -- the unwinding of regulation in the workplace had a lot to do with the bush administration, lawrence. we celebrated the man's presidency today at the opening of his presidential library. but if you look at what happened to osha, which is the organization that oversees workplace hazards and really has the -- an eye out for the american worker, 86% -- i believe 86% fewer regulations were issued under bush. the man he appointed to head

osha literally fell asleep on the job multiple times while he headed osha. the notion of regulation became a very bad thing under bush. and unfortunately, the story of what happened in west, texas is a story of what's happening to the american worker. who is now forced -- it's not just indignities, these are substandard wages they are making, these are highly hazardous conditions in many areas. i mean, and it's not just bp. this is the -- the workers in bangladesh who died in a fire making clothes for walmart. this is happening around the world. and it has to do with the way we treat the american worker and what we have done to unwind the safety mechanisms that are supposed to protect the american worker. >> so after this explosion, after these fatalities in this workplace, the governor of texas goes to chicago to lure business to texas. let's listen to what he says. >> all businesses have to look

at their bottom line. taxes, regulation, legal system, work force. that's what government does. government can either be a hurdle or government can kind of smooth out the road. we think in texas we've smoothed that road out about as good as anybody. >> richard wolffe is very proud of smoothing out that road. >> yeah. and you have got to ask yourself as governor, elected by the people in texas, are you representing business interests? because that's one measure of his success. he brags about how many businesses he has pulled out of other states and therefore created those jobs, even though he pulled them out of another state. that's one measure of him. another measure is are your citizens, are your voters safe when they go to work. do they come home at the end of the day. are the volunteer firefighters safe, volunteer firefighters. isn't that the heart of a place, like west, texas? so it's a very narrow view that rick perry has, what his job is. and i -- that is written large

for republicans, i'm afraid, at the national level too. if their job is just to please the chamber of commerce, and that's just the national chamber of commerce, then they're doing a great, great job. but actually, maybe they also have responsibilities to voters who want health care that's affordable, who actually can buy the guns or whatever they want to do, and then vote for republicans. there are republicans who want to be safe when they're out fighting fires. >> alex wagner, i can only hope there is as much investigative energy of this case in texas as there is in boston for the tragedy that occurred there. there's a correct amount of investigative energy being brought to that. but these industrial cases are, first of all, treated as accidents instead of very suspicious possible manslaughter cases. >> yeah. i mean, you look at the -- what happened in boston was horrible. but lawrence, i think it's so right you're calling attention to this. because this week this story has been subsumeded by details from boston. and an important story, but this

is an important story. and this is an important story, because the long-range consequences here are fairly significant. for not just the american economy, but who we are as a country and the way we treat each other. i think it is worth noting, another part of this is federal funding. and the administration has got to get on board. osha is so underfunded, they last inspected this fertilizer plant in the 1980s. at present, osha has so little funding, they can only look into one of these plants every 126 years. it's a joke. we have got to change the way we regulate. >>ives are at stake in this case. richard wolffe and alex wagner, thank you both for joining me tonight. thank you. >> thanks, lawrence. coming up, the obama administration has been very cautious about syria, and that, of course, is conflicting with republican saber rattling for war. and in the rewrite, teddy roosevelt doesn't have a presidential library. but now george w. bush does. how did that happen? the presidential library racket

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barbara bush didn't get the memo. here is what barbara bush actually said when asked if her son, jeb bush, should be the next president bush. >> he's by far the best qualified man, but no. i really don't. i think it's a great country, there are a lot of great families, and it's not just four families or whatever. there are other people out there that are very qualified, and we've had enough bushes. >> the presidential libraries that aren't really libraries are in the rewrite, next.

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the george w. bush library is opening. except the history section. that's being rewritten. >> i am so pumped! because this thing is going to be packed with bush-nography. more than 4,300 artifacts and 2 million e-mails on display. and those 200 million e-mails could have almost 18 nonredacted words. >> at today's dedication of the george w. bush presidential library, no truer words were spoken than this. >> i told president obama that this was the latest, grandest example of the eternal struggle of former presidents to rewrite history. >> ha-ha-ha. that is the business that presidential libraries are in.

rewriting history. and to a large extent, controlling history at taxpayer expense. in salon today, anthony clark, writing a book about presidential libraries, explains how they control history by controlling access to presidential records. the george w. bush library will begin accepting freedom of information act requests for most of their records on january 20th, 2014. but just because the documents are subject to freedom of information act requests does not mean they're processed and available for release. soon after the availability date, the backlog quickly will be measured in years, as is the case with the three most recent libraries. the bush library also may withhold certain records at the request of the former president until january 20th, 2021, at which time a new freedom of information act backlog for those documents would then begin

to grow. there are many records, journalists and historians are eager to see that will not be released for a decade or more. now, real libraries are actually eager to make their collections available to historians and other users. presidential libraries are not, because they are not really libraries. they are shrines. they are theme parks of adoration. they are what you would expect to see in a dictatorship, where public worship of the head of state is mandatory. not every president is worthy of a shrine. but every president gets one. well, every president since 1955, when congress made the mistake of passing the presidential libraries act. prior to that, franklin roosevelt created his own presidential library at hyde park, new york. and then donated that library to the government. that became the model of what was to follow.

so thomas jefferson doesn't have a government-maintained presidential library, but george w. bush does. john adams and john quincy adams don't have presidential libraries, but richard nixon does. realizing that the presidential library thing has gotten way out of hand, congress has tried to control the explosive growth of the size and the scope of the shrines, but the former presidents' layers find ways around the limitations. so modern presidents spend a career in politics, debasing themselves by begging people for money for their campaigns. many of them actually make the mistake of thinking that those very rich people giving them those big bags of money are actually their friends. some presidents believe that those very rich people would really want to be deeply involved in their lives, even if they didn't get to sleep in the lincoln bedroom from time to time. and after a career of begging

people for money, a career of always having to calculate how their next political decision might affect their endless need for massive donations, from wall street, and the other wealth centers of america, you would think that the one pure joy of watching your successor take that oath of office as president is the realization that you'll never have to beg for money again. but all of our ex presidents now don't miss a beat and just keep right on begging, all those same special interests, all those same rich people, because all of our ex presidents immediately go about the business of building a shrine to themselves, and there are no more pesky campaign contribution limits to deal with, and they can collect any amount of money from anyone, and they don't have to tell anyone about it. so you're sitting there in the

oval office in the last year of your presidency, and the plans for your library taking shape right over there. and let's say, oh, i don't know, let's say maybe wall street gets itself in some serious trouble. and then let's say they need, you know, some kind of bailout. and let's say you're going to be the final decider on that bailout. just how tough or how lenient the terms of that bailout will be. do you think contributions to your presidential library might go through your mind at a moment like that? maybe? do we really want a president sitting there, in that situation, whose first order of business after leaving office is to raise hundreds of millions of dollars to build a shrine to himself? and that's the part of the financing of the presidential libraries that isn't even controversial, because that doesn't involve sacred taxpayer money. political fund-raising is a

dirty business. i'm not necessarily saying it is an illegal business. but it's a dirty business. it's a highly compromising thing. to everyone who goes near it. and raising money for presidential libraries is just as compromising, and would be beneath the dignity of the presidency if the presidency itself actually had any dignity. which, of course, it does not. as richard nixon and others have proved. and so the shrines continue to multiply, and taxpayers pay for the maintenance and ongoing operation of these shrines. which have drifted far from any notion of being centers of scholarship. the latest temporary exhibit at the reagan library was what they called, quote, treasures of the walt disney archives. why that stuff couldn't have been exhibited a few miles down the road at the disney studios

without incurring any taxpayer expense is a question that will not be asked by anyone at fox news or in the republican house of representatives in their next rant. about indefensible government spending. >> you can buy your tickets online now. of course, some of them will be for the bush presidential library. and some will be for the gore presidential library. but the ticket counters will read them all as bush. i think ford service is great, but i wondered what a customer thought? describe the first time you met. you brought the flex in... as soon as i met fiona and i was describing the problem we were having with our rear brakes, she immediately triaged the situation, knew exactly what was wrong with it, the car was diagnosed properly, it was fixed correctly i have confidence knowing that if i take to ford it's going to be done correctly with the right parts and the right people. get a free brake inspection and brake pads installed for just 49.95 after rebates when you use the ford service credit card.

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red line for the united states of america. but before jumping to any conclusions, the white house said, "given the stakes involved, and what we have learned from our own recent experience intelligence assessments alone are not sufficient. only credible and corroborated facts that provide some certainty will guide our decision-making." secretary hagel said the administration will respond carefully to any new information. >> we need all the facts. we need all the information. as to a red line, my role as secretary of defense is to give the president options on a policy issue. that's a policy issue. and we'll be prepared to do that at such time that the president requires options. >> joining me now, david corn, washington bureau chief for mother jones and msnbc political

analyst. david, it turns out some senators don't need all of the facts. john mccain saying today that we should have intervened months ago. he doesn't need to wait for anymore facts. it has this feel of, for some of these senators, of no lesson learned from that last thing, you know, that iraq thing. >> which we didn't hear much talk about at the bush library ceremony today, right? obviously, john mccain, lindsey graham and others are trying to bum rush the president into war in syria. i hate to say it, but it obvious seems like they have never met an international conflict where more war, more u.s. intervention wasn't the only answer. the portion of the letter that you cited a few moments ago, to me is really the key thing here. you know, the white house is saying, we have evidence that leads to a likely assessment that chemical weapons were used on a small scale, but that given what has happened in the past

with iraq and wmds, we need to get corroboration. so the president is taking what i consider to be kind of a prudent course here, and he's also talked about members of the administration have talked about what would be the appropriate response if, indeed, they found out, say, some chemical weapons were used on a small-scale basis. does that mean a total invasion? back before the invasion of iraq, president bush gave us sort of a binary outlook. either we do nothing or we have a full-scale invasion. there are often lots of options in between those polar opposite. so i think the president is trying to move cautiously here. but, you know, any time in politics when you say there is a red line and the red line is crossed, it sometimes limits your options and you almost back yourself into a corner. >> let's -- the "new york times" editorial in morning actually said we should only consider any change in the policy only if there is incontrovertible proof of the use of chemical weapons

and only if other countries join in the response. and that seems like the minimal standard, post-iraq. >> and that comment was, you know, part of the standard the president set for libya and getting other nations involved to actually take the lead in some oh of the military operations over there. incontrovertible evidence is a pretty good standard, and the president in that letter you cited says that he wants u.n. investigation to continue, and try to gather that response. so the question we have here, which was a question we had ten years ago, lawrence, is can we have sort of a reasonable, deliberative debate and process in this country, and politically about assessing the threat and the actions and a deliberate response to it. without, you know, having the hawks -- as i said earlier, bum rush the president and others into, you know, a very quick military intervention.

>> david, you would think that your book "hubris" would have taught everything they need to know about this, but they have more reading to do. david corn, thank you very much for joining us tonight. >> my pleasure. >> up next, "hardball" with chris matthews. >> we're talking about going to new york and exploding their bombs in times square, we'll have that in